Spoiler Cry, Even Better if you Beg

I love when you said "Not everyone has a traumatic or tragic past. Through Matthias's character we are able to see that perfection is not also good or even desirable."

Indeed, he is one of those character that may seem to have a 'perfect life' without any real traumatic past. But we do know, his family is not that 'normal' either. Imagine growing up without understanding real affection or love?

Matthias was born to be a duke. He was given no choice in life. His life purpose (just like Claudine) is to continue Herhardt's family glory. His parents never love each other. His mom nor grandma don't seem to understand the concept of 'familiar love' either. They are bonded through their duties and not love. That is why, Matthias grew up without even knowing what is 'Love'.

He mistook 'love' to 'desire'/obsession. He grew up not knowing how to express his emotion. He did not have a real supportive circle around him. This is his tragic story that made him the way he is.

 

I wish there was an easier way to group multi-quotes from different comments by the same individual. My apologies friends for your notifs! Lol

I really really loved this part of your analysis. I think you hit every single nail square on the head in terms of determining how multifaceted "Blue" is as a metaphor/theme throughout the story. Really, it's brilliant!

I'm pretty sure we probably read the same FTL, I think maybe it was on WoopRead? Does that ring a bell for you? I was so upset when I found out last year the person who "TL" it made up a bunch of the story(that's what I heard at least & partially why I doubled down on learning Korean enough to try to just read on my own... It seems I too have trust issues haha)

Awwww! Well welcome! I, myself got into webtoons/manhwa originally maybe 3.5-4years ago now roughly as a way to pass the bitter rural Winters where I live. Lol If I knew then it would be opening its own kind of Pandoras Box I might have taken things a bit slower. I have a really bad habit of consuming series all in one sitting if I'm determined enough to do so. Bwahaha! Then once I found out that most manhwa are adaptions from Novels it was truly well & over for me at that point. I havent really read much out of the Western Market for the better part of nearly 2 years now. I think Korean authors are very special in that regard because I haven't found similar reads in English and if it is adjacent in content the writing feels like it was done by high-school kids. (Especially the R18 romance stuff if you feel me). I just can't do it.
On a secondary note, I absolutely also agree that the younger folks usually will be civil... UNTIL you have a difference in opinion(no matter how insignificant). It's truly frustrating and yessss, I am so over fucking virtue signaling as a whole. I feel like if you are a good person at your core you wouldn't feel the need to tell everyone how much of a "good person/open-minded/accepting" person you are. Mind you I am an early millennial(1991). Things have only become worse with time, I truly fear for my nephew's generation(Alpha). I can see it already with him that there's literally non-existent emotional regulation at times, it scary to think that in 10 years time it will be impossible for him to have healthy discussions with opposing views with his peers without being cast out or ostracized for not going with the status quo. Long tangent again, sorry for that. But this is largely why I am a silent participant on the forums usually. I just dont have the energy to argue with people who can't be civil and articulate themselves with respect & common decency. Like when they called yall rape apologists essentially & defending Matthias earlier. Like, WHERE DID THEY SAY THAT RAPE WAS OKAY CHILD?

I have not! I remember seeing the trailer for the movie and having my curiosity piqued... maybe I'll have to make an exception and crack it open soon.

I have 2 of her other works on my TBR. I started The Problematic Prince at one point but then shelved it because other series took priority. I mentioned in a comment above this one that I have a terrible habit of consuming series in their entirety sometimes, especially if I'm really interested in it. It's akin to a thirst for needing to know what happens next but not feeling satisfied until 18hrs & 7Volumes later ive read everything in one sitting. This year I am trying to slow down and take my time but sometimes I really can't help it. Like for "Tread Lightly on Thawing Ice" By Nichtigall. I absolutely could not put that down once I started. Lol

It certainly feels that way doesn't it? For the 2 years I've known about COBYB/CEBIYB it really has been the one novel I have seen cause heated arguments over & over & over again.

I have never related to a comment on the internet more than this! I literally FELT that! Lol
I feel like as I've become older I've become more grumpy, more cynical, have less idealism about the world(since through my own experiences have come to find that it's just a sharp & jagged terrain to navigate all while the universe shines a magnifying glass on you like an ant to see how long until you spontaneously combust from the stress of it all). So I chalk that up mostly to why I'm generally unbothered by content that truly navigates the gray area of perception & morality.

 

There are only like 4 people in the whole world who delude themselves into thinking Matthias is not a rapist And unfortunately they are all in this thread

Ther essays that spam parahrpas are like high school students who are trying to hit the word limit but have nothing to say so they add fluff words



Layla liking him came out of nowhere. People in reddit were saying that if the auhtor was gonna have her end up with the pedo rapist they should have shown it as a bad ending it was instead of that cringe flower and rainbows shit that clashed with the rest if the book

In what universe will they have a happy marraigw knowing the pedo rapist is okay with killing his child for her.

They are gonna be the worst parents in the world and there kid if it's a boy is gonna have those genric tragic ML backstories.

Good luck kid. You'll need it

Also only people who self insert as Layla and want to fuck Matthias defend him. Like that's all it is. His fabpage is a damn cult that rivals Snape wives of old

The kind of people who watch the handmaids tale and say June was actually in love with the commander cause red means love or some shit and she wears it

Hmmmm. Matthiaswives is a nice name for his special fans

 

Hi @EchoAndromeda !

Thank you for sharing your thoughts! I think the FTL I read was on Wuxia? I found it randomly online after I saw the beautiful illustrations online of the manhwa.

Thank you for the warm welcome to the manhwa fan community. What are your top 3 favorite manhwas?

HAHAHA, you remember that when someone was called a "rapist apologist" on here? That happened right before I joined this forum and you just got to laugh at those comments. When someone can't handle a different viewpoint you are either a racist, sexist, rapist, Nazi, Bigot, blah blah blah. We are talking about Fictional characters here and people can't accept differing opinions and interests. I think the folks have good intentions at heart. They fear that readers are going to be influened by a gray character and don't want that person to get hurt in real life. Therefore, they see Matthias as a real person hurting people. The folks truly believe that they are fighting for a morally just cause by attacking fans of a fictional book. They are going to get a big wake up call in the real world. With life experience I better learned to accept other people's values, opinions, politics, morals and I'm just happier in general. People are growing tired of the virtue signaling and cancel culture. It will eventually pass like everything else does in time. I do think with AI technology advancing the truth will become more blurry.

I think Solche's novel CEBIUB has high discussion and disagreements because the story has realism and great writing. The literary fiction makes you feel emotionally invested and connected with the characters that you feel you are in a emotional train wreck. I feel every character in this book so well that I can't objectively take one single side. The book is divided with fans loving the book or people hating the book. Layla has hidden trauma, coming of age, loss of innocence, confliction, dark emotions, splitting that readers can see her as a victim versus a person struggling with abandonment trauma and eventually overcoming her fears. Layla is a multifaceted character and her story isn't written to be fun or happy but a person struggling with BPD in my opinion.

I highly recommend to watch the movie, "Where the Crawdads Sing"! The movie is on Netflix. Reese Witherspoon is one of the Producers as the original book is in her reading fan club. I feel like CEBIUB is a mix of Pride and Prejudice and Where the Crawdads Sing. I can't think of other comparable stories. It's a coming of age story, murder mystery and romance!

Hah, I definitely have become a lot more cynical versus my youth of optimism and extreme naivety. Despite the hurt and loss over the years I feel much more confidence and wise. A different person in my reflection. Now I crave complex stories and morally gray characters. They are so much more interesting to me with life experience. You eventually graduate from Lord of the Ring, clear black and white story and characters, to Game of Thrones with many, many gray characters.

Thank you for sharing your viewpoints. I like your logic!

 

Where did anyone specifically say they support rape? Or noncon behavior? Or that they're self inserting or want to fuck Matthias for that matter? Where are you pulling this nonsense from? You're literally making words up that were never said that way. it's weird af.
The closest thing I can see is when someone had pointed out the fact that what they had was a deal between them originally which ultimately stemmed from him being in an absolute position of power over Layla which would have made it difficult for her to refuse in either case and that itself is not an opinion, its a fact... and ultimately an absolute example of the effect of power dynamics between individuals...
You're making some really bold assumptions and accusatory statements about strangers on the internet and it really just shows how immature you are at your core. Much like my 9 year old Nephew your behavior imitates the same nonsensical tantrums when he tells people to "Shut up" and "You're wrong & stupid" simply because he doesn't like what the adults are saying. Do you realize how worked up you're getting over a piece of fiction...? IF thats the biggest issue you have in your life right now then truly, im envious that you have nothing better to do.
Nothing you've posted has brought any value to the conversation being had here. Whether you agree or disagree the least you could have tried to do was explain your point and support it with information from the story itself. You have chosen over & over not to do that and instead just brought negativity and continue to bring a negative attitude while insulting the people who ARE trying to discuss their own thoughts about the novel.
It's really sad... You don't have to participate if you don't agree with the others but the fact you keep coming back with nothing constructive to say just shows how bothered you are and how desperate your need to feel heard and have the last word is. Nobody is forcing you to participate except yourself. Turn off the thread notifications if you're unable be objective and participate with peers. (I bet you won't though )
If they wanted to participate on Reddit they could. And vice versa. But this is NU so any discussion there really doesn't mean much to the folks putting their thoughts out here. It's regrettable that you feel like an outlier and think the only validating way you have to express yourself is by insulting the people having a discussion amongst themselves and by consistently shoving your lackluster opinions and shitty assumptions down others throats. But, just because you get some upvotes over on Reddit ultimately doesn't make your opinion right either. You're just being preachy on a pulpit to people who think exactly the same as you do. My best advice would be for you to just keep your discussions over there where you can get the positive affirmation about yourself that you really feel you need from the internet & drop this thread and leave it for the people trying to objectively discuss & process the novel.(but again, I really don't think you will)
Regardless of you consistently showing your ass all over on this thread I STILL hope you have a glorious & bountiful year ahead of you.

Says a person whose also writing long paragraph heavy posts without actually saying anything useful either but sure, okay.

@moonlight07 @Spidey1Fan @mireimisty
I'll shoot all 3 of you a follow. Unless a staff-member/mod comes and intervenes permanently at this point I don't think anyone will be able to focus on any meaningful discussion without being called a rape apologist or "whatever weird childish attempt at orignal insulting name" some folks can't help themselves from posting.
It's really unfortunate to see people being attacked like that over & over again by one person regurgitating the same baseless assumptions & weird accusatory statements. I'm out though, I just don't have the energy to keep going back and forth with this person after this post and I only decided to address them directly now because its exhausting to watch them continuously bash the 3 of you(but they said 4 in the last post so i guess im also lumped in there for participating minimally in thread lololol). Im proud that none of Y'all have resorted to the same tactics but I've just had enough. It'll only devolve further into a pissing match and I got over that behavior in HS.
But like I mentioned originally, I hope yall know your discussion is appreciated. It was refreshing to see different takes like I said and I really hope we can discuss other novels in the future. I hope each of you stay healthy & well into the year.

 

Thanks @EchoAndromeda !

Yes! Let's share and continue other book conversation in the future!

 

Thank you, this is Solche’s brilliant skills of writing. She could describe all sadness and happiness, struggles and fears just in single phrase. Isn’t it amazing?

Personally I do think that “The Blue Candy” and “Deep water” gives the same vibe.
Both of them were Layla’s fears and related traumas. She faced it head-on, and eventually, she could heal. However, in the case of ‘Deep Water,’ she managed to overcome her fear a little later, ironically with the help of Matthias

To overcome your fears, you need to confront them first. In both cases we can witness of this. Do you also see the similarities?

I’m sorry but I couldn’t get your point. You said “pedo”, where is there “pedophilia” in the story.

Layla was a fully grown woman when she entered an intimate relationship with Matthias. Even at the moment of their first kiss, she was already 18 years old, if not older.

In addition, I have almost the same age gap with my husband. It is a little bit confusing for me after your words.

Oh yes, I totally agree with you. This novel is so nuanced that even after finishing it, we continue to discover new aspects, hidden symbolisms, and deeper meanings behind the events.

After the release of the manhwa, the ‘drowning’ scene, I understood that it actually wasn’t solely about Layla’s impulsive act or Matthias’s childish reaction to his kindness that been trampled.

Layla jumped into the river without knowing how to swim, just to catch a mere hat. The hat, which actually symbolized love and care. Because the hat, bought by Uncle Bill, conveyed his generosity, instilling a sense of being loved in Layla. Therefore, the hat was equal to Uncle Bill’s love. Layla’s reckless action conveyed a main message about her hunger of love. As if she had been traumatized and neglected, the sensation of being loved by someone held more value than even her own well-being. The author described it thereby:

“All the while, she kept holding onto the hat’s ribbon, as if it were her lifeline.”

The only thing that could keep her in life was the feeling of to be adored.

 

Oh goodness! hahaha I love when you said that final sentence. I myself is not someone who always enjoy gray character. I personally enjoy COBYB because of the narrative. But recently, my husband also joked to me "you must be thinking our life is so calm that you are looking for drama somewhere else." There goes why I read COBYB

Thank you for saying this! hehe. This is my first time to participate in a forum. Quite shocked at first to see how others can be really mean just because you have differing opinion. But now, I don't give it a damn anymore LOL. I am here to enjoy the discussion with people who want to discuss.

Matthias communication style with Layla - is he manipulative with Layla? ​

I would like to share one of my recent analysis on Matthias communication with Layla. Remember, this is purely a fans theory but I do hope you would enjoy it as much as I do

Matthias showed his real-self to Layla. He let go of his duke persona and communicated as himself. How does he communicate with Layla?

1.A passive communicator of his own feeling

He is not a man with a lot of words. He reflected more in his mind than speaking and showed his feeling through action. He rarely speak out his disagreement and avoided conflict. He let Layla took over the conversation.

Chap 80 - When Layla decided to go to the cabin at her own will
M: “It didn’t occur to you to go home, then?”
L: “You ordered me to wait here for you” (Context: he never ordered her)
M: “Since when have you cared about following my orders?” (Matthias never corrected her. Instead he continued Layla’s narrative)

His passiveness may not show as much because readers were focusing more on Layla’s narratives.
Matthias also enjoyed being playful with Layla. He joked a lot through sarcasm. However, this is something that readers (and Layla) may misunderstood and find it not attractive. Layla tend to misunderstood the joke due to her negative assumption.

Chap 63
“Have you thought about switching from teaching to a career in acting? I have never seen an actor make an audience laugh as much as you did”

Chap73:
“Fine, suit yourself. If you want to die, then I’ll make gravestone for you. Let’s see, what should it say...? How about, ‘Here lies Duke Herhadt’s mistress? What do you think? Don’t worry, it will be an ornate marble gravestone, large enough for everyone to see.”

2. Let’s go to the most interesting part. Did he use manipulative communication to Layla?

Yes. However, he used this for good purposes, when the situation forced him to do so. To understand this, let’s understand what is manipulative communication. Manipulation involves using indirect or deceitful tactics to control or influence others. In some rare instances, individuals might rationalize using manipulative communication for what they perceive as a good purpose such as: Protecting someone, Motivating change, Avoiding conflict.

When and Why did he do that to Layla?
Matthias did this when he wanted to give something to Layla or when he wanted Layla to eat due to worries. However, he knew Layla would reject without rational reasons. Thus, he chose to use manipulation. He did not enjoy being manipulative.Yet, a lot of times, he was given no other option.

Chap 10: Sandwich scene
M: Sit down, Layla. Eat. (Assertive, Clear)
L:Thank you, Your grace. But I’m alright. If there’s nothing else you need, I should be on my...”
M: Layla. Did you think it was a request? (Manipulative through exaggerated image of authority.)

Here you could see a progression of his communication from Clear and Assertive to Manipulative. Therefore, when you see he was manipulative, think about “Why did he do that?”

In this event, Layla was pregnant and depressed after Uncle Bill passed away. If Layla did not eat, it would be detrimental to her health. Therefore, Matthias decided to lie and threaten Layla. This does not mean it was a correct attitude! Even with seemingly good intentions, manipulating others undermines trust, autonomy, and the foundation of honest communication.

Chap 129:
L: Until you let me go, I’m not going to drink one drop of water. That fact will never change no matter what.”
M: In any case, Kyle is in prison, and he’s probably quite hungry by now. But I’m not the reason he was imprisoned, but I am the reason he’s not being fed. (Manipulative through exaggerated image of authority.)

Let’s not forget, Matthias is not the only one. Layla also exhibited poor open communication from the beginning.
Layla was trapped in her negative assumption and reacted impulsively without rational reasons. Triggered by Layla rejection, Matthias was unable to express emotion in an open and constructive way. The two needed to work on expressing emotion in a healthy manner.

Have a great weekend everyone!

 

You nailed it!!!

Even if this fucking bastard would be rapist, abuser or even ‘pedo’ (I’m still feeling uncomfortable after this word) and fuck knows who else, she/he is just a part of fiction after all. Why we are not able to discuss these ‘fictional bastards’.

Personally I don’t think that Matthias was red flag. He is indeed morally gray character who was struggled with pain and love, moreover, the confusion of not knowing what was the right or wrong.

I’m sorry guys, I’m kinda pissed off.

 

Hehe.. calm down @moonlight07 But i do agree. this is fiction. all of us have a chance to share our thought in a constructive manner.
And what is Matthiaswives club. I think people seriously never read when I wrote I'm not even Matthias fans.

LOL! I feel like I haven't truly graduate from Lord of the Ring. But I started to find gray characters appealing. Or more like I love a story that truly doesn't have bad or good character. Something like Ghibli movies.

I am going to try to watch that movie! thank you for the recommendation I just finished watching a K-drama series Gyeongseong creature haha. Now I have some space to watch new movies.

 

Ahaha, this part made me laugh. Hm, I’m fan of morally gray characters not just Matthias What was the song:

 

I mean seriously... I have put it in bold for so long. I am not Matthias fans but COBYB fans. Matthias for me is a boring character I like more of a bold sassy type of man in the fictional world. Someone like Jeremy in Stepmother Märchen or Bastian. So stop calling me Matthias wives. Grrr..

Hahahhaa! what a song! I can't help to admire the lyric. Welcome to the grey character fans club I love the part when the lyric said "Sarcastic and witty".

 

Oh my GOODNESS!

What a great post, you left nothing to add

Most people think that a “manipulative style” of communication is entirely negative. However, from your post, I can see that it has its own positive sides, and I appreciate you pointing that out. To be honest, I can understand his manipulation, it was for Layla’s sake, after all. Even his passiveness while talking with Layla - he really tried to avoid any conflict between them. I also love his sarcasm, he has a dark sense of humor

Lol.

I can’t point out any characters from manhwa world since I’m really new here

 

Yeap. Manipulative communication is a communication style. It is (of course) mostly used for wrong purposes. However, it can also be used for good purposes when the audience is not in a situation of making rational decision. For example, when Layla was depressed during the war after uncle Bill passed away.

Layla was pregnant and she didn't eat anything for days except for pickled fruits. She was malnourished lost a lot of weight. At this state, she could actually lose her life and the baby if Matthias did not force her to eat. If we read properly, he actually tried to be assertive and told her to eat and think about the baby. But Layla was extremely depressed at this moment and could not reason logically.

Imagine if you are parents and facing a tantrum child? Your child did not want to eat although you know it could be detrimental for the health. As parents, of course you have to choose other method that may include force for the good of the child. That is what I see in Matthias act when he used manipulative technique to force Layla to eat. Matthias took the role of a 'villain' for motivating Layla to eat.

What do you all think about it?

 

Just going to put it here for all of us:

This is general rules for NU forum, applicable for every thread and post. There might be additional specific rules in sub-forum.

The general rules for posting:

No NSFW/racist/avatars/propaganda post. Be nice and polite. Respect others and think before posting.

Novel rules:
Be CIVIL. Do not disrespect each other, the mods, or the community.

Also…

Serious offenses:

• using information on NUF to dig out personal information (privacy infringement, "doxing")
• posting suicidal*, terrorism, and or anything related to criminal activity.
• constantly targeting and insulting a user
• threatening the mods or a user, in a way that tries to intimidate or ends up scaring the receiver

Read more at: https://www.novelupdatesforum.com/threads/forum-rules.29321/

 

I LOVE THIS SONG!!!

This is a dedication to "Gray" Character Fans!

Your depiction of the scene is spot-on! Layla recklessly entered a river with a strong current without any knowledge of swimming. This is incredibly hazardous and reckless. It's crucial to emphasize the importance of never venturing into a river or any body of water without possessing adequate swimming skills, as Layla could have easily faced the risk of drowning.

Hah! It's time to graduate from LOTR and enter the realm of GOT!!

Yes, I don't think Layla would have survived without Matthias. Layla was deeply depressed and sick after Uncle Bill died. Bill's death was so tragic and moving. When Bill finally accepted his title as "Father" to Layla. Layla loving Bill as her own Dad. It was a very bittersweet moment.

Your analysis is excellent! I believe Matthias can be characterized as a "gray" character rather than a "Red" Flag. I personally find his sarcasm and teasing quite humorous. However, I acknowledge that the interpretation of his sarcasm might differ, especially for those reading the FTL or those who are not fans of sarcasm.

 

Hey @mireimisty and @moonlight07 !

Check this video about Literary Fiction versus Genre Fiction. I think CEBIUB should be categorized as Literary Fiction.

 

Oh WOW!

COBYB indeed literary fiction.

Character-focused narratives, ample symbolism, metaphors, social and political themes, and non-fixed plot formula are all elements included in the novel that classify it as Literary Fiction.

 

I have a question. When did leyla realized she was pregnant? In which chapter?? I read the novel twice but I never picked up on that.

 

hello! I think we started to see her morning symptom at chapter 113.

There was never a real line saying when she realised she was pregnant. But at Chapter 119, Layla said ”she had a queasy feeling that something inside her was causing her agony, but it didn’t feel like something that she could get rid of by throwing up.”

This seems to mean she realised something is happening inside her. Because, she probably had been throwing up quite a lot, and no medicine cured that. Probably this was the first time she realised she might be pregnant.

What do you think @Spidey1Fan @moonlight07 ??