Question (Chinese) How to translate these royalty titles?

I've been attempting to translate the title of "王爷" into an English equivalent. So basically, the Emperor's brother.

I've seen people translate it as "Prince", however it would be confusing in the context of the CN, as not only the emperor's brother 王爷 (Prince) appears, but also the Emperor's sons 皇子(also Prince). We also have the emperor's brother's children: 郡主 (Princess in some translations) and 世子(Prince)....

How exactly should I translate each of these individual titles? I do not wish to make it confusing for the readers, so even if I have to use a substitution title that's not too far off the mark...

 

Not someone that speaks chinese, so these are just suggestions.
Maybe consider other titles from western aristocracy. Duke or grand duke (although this meaning is closer to king) for example. Or if you really cannot come up with a proper synonym, there is the option to make one, although that might be confusing in and of itself.

Edit: spelling and maybe this will help: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_and_noble_ranks

 

Forgot the novel but someone translated it as "Imperial Uncle" i think.

 

i'm pretty sure in the battle for the throne when princes/princess are out there, if they are un successful they retain title of "prince" or "princess" whilst the emperor's/king's children are also referred as prince/princess.

EDIT: i got this from reading a shit ton of novels, don't bash me with a stick or chase me with pitchforks and torches.

 

That is what I thought too, but the problem is that I am extremely unfamiliar with English titles of nobility; I only have a vague knowledge of what some of them means.

That is true for English, but Chinese have very different titles for each of them. I wouldn't have bothered making a difference usually, however in a novel that involves politics it can be confusing if I don't differentiate them

 

I linked european titles on wikipedia for you.

 

uh then i think you should stay with imperial uncle.

 

Actually I think you forget the most important part. The notion of titles is to convey their place in the pecking order. Use of a title in the story is a symbol for the reader, where should I as a reader place this character in the storyline. If the context shows this clearly then you have more liberty to translate their titles to what you like. If the context is unclear at least convey that this is a character of some importance with your title.

In many stories I have come across there are multiple kingdoms in their world and prince is kind of weak-sauce as a title since Kings+Harem = have dozens of them.

 

You can add the Suffix ' Elder ' to any prince related to the older generation. So Elder Prince...

While you speak about the King's blood related off spring, they would be merely Prince and Princess still.

 

How about Imperial Uncle, Honored Prince and Honored Princess?

 

You make a good point. It does involve princes (sons of the emperor) fighting for the throne. Here, I want to make a distinction because the different princey titles make one eligible to the throne (sons of emperor), while the others (sibling and nieces and nephews of the emperor) do not but still have considerable status as they are still part of the royal family and aren't just nobility.

I think the title of Duke might work out for the brother of the emperor, but that leaves what the son and daughters of the duke would be called.

That might actually be a good idea. But then the same question comes out: what should the son and daughter of the "elder prince" be called?

 

For UK , it's like this : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Courtesy_titles_in_the_United_Kingdom
go to 1.8

For the eldest son of the duke , it would be his father subsidiary title , for the younger son "the lord" and an unmarried daughter "the lady" . But that's for the UK.

But again here we have royalty so they should be called prince / princess wouldn't they ? And even when royalty can't have access to the throne they are still prince like the "duke of edinburgh" (Queen Elizabeth's consort) is also prince phillip, although he has no claim on the british throne.

Just my personal opinion but imperial uncle for the brother of the emperor and prince / princess for the offsprings. After all if all offsprings of the current emperor dies then the next emperor would be the brother then his own offsprings so they are all prince/princess if they are royalty.

 

A solution would be that each time character X is mentioned in a chapter you will add the suffix "the duke´s daughter X" and after that in the chapter you will only refer to her by (X) name. We as a reader know by then of their status and spamming their title is just unnecessary. Character X is actually weak-sauce, the one with the power is the duke. I personally don't believe this is taking to much liberties as a translator but I will leave it to you to decide for yourself.

 

I suggest going with the British royalty titles, as they are one of the easier ones... so the choice of Duke is quite correct, as for the children as they do not inherit the prince titles usually from their parents calling them Young Duke or Young Duchess would be appropriate because that's the title they would likely inherit anyway, when they either grow up or once their parents pass away...

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_prince
I think either Grand Prince or Grand Duke would work, there's a list of ranks on the right side of the wikipedia page you can use for reference.

 

I translate 王爷 as King, because using prince would just be really confusing and they're basically kings.

Duke - 公
Marquis - 侯
Count - 伯
Viscount - 子
Baron - 男

Edit: Actually, Grand Prince, Grand Duke, and Archduke are viable options as well...

 

Anything above that of a Duke would be okay for 王爷.
I also translated them as kings (Well, if you're using emperor for the sovereign of your country)
Honestly, I don't think Imperial Uncle is a good translation.
王爷 is a true noble rank conferred by the emperor, and it is above that of the Duke rank in ancient China. I don't think Imperial Uncle really reflects how noble the position is and that it is an official noble. Besides, 王爷 is not just limited to uncles of the emperor. After a crown prince ascends, he could confer the title on 王爷 on his other brothers as well. That would make it Imperial Brother :O. But well, there isn't really an English equivalent for it though, so in the end, it's up to the translator's interpretation.

 

Anything with duke would be an incorrect translation for 王爷. That is because 公 is translated as duke. There are also several tiers for dukes (e.g. 国公, 县公, etc.), none of which would ever be addressed as 王爷. Instead, they would rather be addressed as 公爷. Please do not conflate the two.

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After the introduction of the term, emperor (皇帝), by Qin Shi Huang, all non-independent 王 became known as princes. Independent 王, such as rulers of China's tributary neighbors, were known as kings. 王爷 isn't actually a formal title, but rather a respectful way of referring to a prince (regardless of whether they're a part of the emperor's nuclear family or subordinate princes), and can be translated as Your/His Imperial Highness. The same is the case for 殿下, although this is limited to an emperor's children.

There are also typically two tiers of principalities/princedoms for these princes - the higher 亲王 and the lower 郡王. I translate 亲王 as imperial prince. This rank is usually limited to the brothers of emperors and their descendants, and is denoted by having one character designating the principality (e.g. the younger brother of Emperor Shenzong of the Song Dynasty, Zhao Hao's title, 吴王). After the Han Dynasty, almost all 亲王 shared the same surname as the ruling dynasty with only a few exceptions.

郡王 or princes of the second rank are typically given to the emperor's extended family who share the same surname (cousins, nephews, etc.), and only on rare occasions as rewards to particularly loyal and capable subjects known as different surnamed princes (异姓王). 郡王 have two characters in their titles (e.g. Song Dynasty general and minister Guo Ziyi's title, 汾陽郡王).

Unless the emperor or the imperial court bestows a title, none of a prince's children have any formal ranks or positions. For a prince to enfeoff their own children would be an act of treason and be subject to harshly punishment meted out by the imperial court. The 世子 of these princes aren't princes (as they don't actually have a princely title), but are rather the prince's designated heirs, the individual who will inherit their father's principality.

As for 公主 and 郡主, the first are an emperor's daughters while the second are the daughters of princes. In most cases, because both 公主 and 郡主 are actually titles bestowed by the emperor, there is no harm in treating both as princesses - imperial princess and princess of the second rank. Princesses always have two characters in their title (e.g. 长乐公主). There is actually another tier above 公主 that is on the same level as an imperial prince, but is almost never granted unless the princess in question has contributed meritoriously (like the 亲王, their titles only have one character).

 

Personally, I am not familiar with western royalty titles myself, so I sure as shell don't expect readers to. That said, with my experience viewing wuxia stuff I agree with 'ongoingwhy' delegations. I however, have chosen to stick with the Chinese title where I feel like there may be confusion. For example, I have 师傅，太师公，师伯，大师伯，二师伯，三师伯。。。 you get my drift. Heck, I don't even know what a viscount or baron is.

So instead, I stick to the Chinese title where I feel it may cause confusion and explain it in the glossary. God bless me if I could provide English titles for 小师姨，师姨，大师姨. And as a reader, I wouldn't understand that ranking unless I'm familiar with it. So while I'd translate 皇上，皇帝 etc. as Emperor or whatever. I'd just translate 王爷 as Wang Ye and put a note somewhere to explain that he's the emperor's brother.

Again using 公主 and 君主 as examples, if you said to me Imperial Princess, I'd get you, but I'd ask you what the shell "Princess of the second rank" means. Does that imply she's second in seniority, talent or what? Like what are we ranking?

Also, I don't remember ever seeing anyone translate 姑姑 when mentioned by 过儿 as aunt, but I remember them leaving it as 姑姑.

Did I mention I don't know what viscounts and barons are?

 

Then just call one imperial/royal princess and the other princess. It's not that difficult to think of ways of shortening titles. You only need to explain the person's full title when he/she is introduced before shortening. For example, in the translation of TGS, I've only translated 楚乡王 as "Marquis of Chu of the second rank" in the first instance before simply translating it as the "Marquis of Chu" afterwards.

In ascending order:
男 - baron
子 - viscount
伯 - count
侯 - marquis
公 - duke
王 - prince
皇帝 - emperor